tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post3006533303772843955..comments2024-03-04T00:09:50.431-08:00Comments on Rikdad's Comic Thoughts: Return of Bruce Wayne 6: The MythRikdadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14475851964933197612noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-64844609409570298062013-08-24T00:29:32.168-07:002013-08-24T00:29:32.168-07:00Not long after rereading the RoBW and these annota...Not long after rereading the RoBW and these annotations I watched the DKR animated movie. That monstrous bat took on a whole new meaning.<br /><br />*shiver*TaroTorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03912752716989401421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-36641534143732728612010-11-17T09:02:20.346-08:002010-11-17T09:02:20.346-08:00These notes are phenomenally good. I think I need ...These notes are phenomenally good. I think I need to devote a whole weekend to puzzling everything out with their help!Ned Beaumanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10270948016861653610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-90890563677537681192010-11-16T06:01:21.829-08:002010-11-16T06:01:21.829-08:00Big week this week for Batman (wow, three morrison...Big week this week for Batman (wow, three morrison issues in a row! 4 if you count The Return). <br />I am looking forward to wednesday, i imagine i should read The Return and then Inc right?Jonnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14667412261395222328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-4106268460152555642010-11-15T12:22:56.855-08:002010-11-15T12:22:56.855-08:00Rikdad -- when Bruce rings the bell that last time...Rikdad -- when Bruce rings the bell that last time and the immediate next panel shows vibrations rippling across all of Earth with splashes of Kirby Dots around the planet, do you see that as, much like Superman killing off the final vestiges of Darkseid's corporeal form in FC, Batman fully and completely ending any semblance of Darkseid in the DC Universe (for now) and the final and total end of the Fourth World? Almost a bookend to FC. That's how I saw it at least. It's friggin tough to get rid of Darkseid for good!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00646322847989341250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-60792430586231281582010-11-13T18:20:58.190-08:002010-11-13T18:20:58.190-08:00Lastly ... it's certainly not coincidence that...Lastly ... it's certainly not coincidence that Bruce comes full circle, and the two people with him for both Thogal (Death Rehearsal) and First Truth (Clinical Death) experiences are Tim Drake and Wonder Woman.Keith Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09191397165163257948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-88795893742229775182010-11-13T12:23:15.067-08:002010-11-13T12:23:15.067-08:00Bruce beating Darkseid is easily as much of a poss...Bruce beating Darkseid is easily as much of a possible "Orion's Revenge" scenario as the Clone Decoy/Hyper-Adapter/Hurt/Reincarnation "Darkseid's Revenge" plot is for Darkseid.<br /><br />After all ... Bruce knew Orion in life ... was an ally. And Bruce was the last person with Orion's body as he sublimated back to The Source. While not as much literal tampering probably happened, Orion's "blessings" could certainly be a peripheral factor in Bruce's ascension.Keith Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09191397165163257948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-83501551294986234812010-11-12T22:34:11.556-08:002010-11-12T22:34:11.556-08:00In the scene where Bruce gets his memory back and ...In the scene where Bruce gets his memory back and sees all the little pictures, there is also a tiny panel where they show the three stars in Orion's belt. That definitely ties the whole Orion incarnation subplot in for me as well, maybe Orion was fighting Darkseid for Bruce's soul the whole time...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10761078826202258683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-30109440490956558552010-11-12T17:33:43.899-08:002010-11-12T17:33:43.899-08:00Great comments as usual, Rikdad. Much appreciated....Great comments as usual, Rikdad. Much appreciated. <br /><br />One thing on the Adapter's stop-off in the Secret Batcave on its way back through time: a broken version of the Miagani whistle-key to the Casket plays there, coming from an unidentified source. I'm assuming that's how Dick was able to find the casket when Hurt couldn't: the whistle unlocked whatever was hiding the box. But does anybody have any theories on what was making the sound? <br /><br />Here's mine: it was the adapter itself, making some kind of bat-noise that the Miagani copied. Which makes its entire existence even more pathetic than it already is: the key to unlocking everything that Hurt thought he wanted originated with the thing that empowered him to begin with. <br /><br />I also like the dark side of The First Truth of Batman: he's never been alone, not just because he had Alfred and all the various helpers and friends he's made since, but because he also had the Adapter with him from the moment he decided to "become a bat." Darkseid, the Adapter, the Devil, Hurt: they all represent the darkness inside Bruce Wayne, the classical evil that he turns toward the good as Batman. It's what the Ten-Eyed Brotherhood cut out of him, and now he's embraced it all over again. But the Thogal's made him stronger, and this time he swallows it whole.Mark Bretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14302251802161506688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-28611505978578401562010-11-12T16:52:30.219-08:002010-11-12T16:52:30.219-08:00thanks rikdad, i think that pretty much does the t...thanks rikdad, i think that pretty much does the trick.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07646154563303225073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-1020458950954230732010-11-12T16:04:43.274-08:002010-11-12T16:04:43.274-08:00Rikdad, that's kind of what I'd guessed. M...Rikdad, that's kind of what I'd guessed. Morrison has borrowed lots of ideas and themes from all over the place, but very little has had a lot of specific plot relevance moving forward.<br /><br />It's almost like he's doing free-association with Batman history.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14362604172110044386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-11877809045800778912010-11-12T15:51:17.764-08:002010-11-12T15:51:17.764-08:00Warren, The Cult portrays the Miagani fairly brief...Warren, The Cult portrays the Miagani fairly briefly and without much in common with Morrison's take on them.<br /><br />Morrison mistakenly said that he took from from Legends of The Dark Knight. He may have had in mind the two Native American tribes who have bat legends who are mentioned in "Shaman", LOTDK #1-5. Those two tribes are actually quite different from one another, and neither is located anywhere near Gotham. It feels like Morrison took the "bat" legends from those and mixed them with the Miagani name.Rikdadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14475851964933197612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-7688297735804088082010-11-12T15:15:39.010-08:002010-11-12T15:15:39.010-08:00Qabiri, that seems to work for me. The figure in t...Qabiri, that seems to work for me. The figure in the 'flashback' panels has a pretty plausible resemblance to Martin Van Derm, taking into account the rather unique art styles involved. Good catch on the pearl necklace too. <br /><br />Retro, I recently picked up the trade for The Cult but I haven't read it yet. How much background is there on the Miagani?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14362604172110044386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-14594876752539614822010-11-12T09:13:20.148-08:002010-11-12T09:13:20.148-08:00I am not sure if FC is necessary to re-read as par...I am not sure if FC is necessary to re-read as part of Morrison's run anymore, now that Batman 701, 702 have come out. I love FC, and by all means read it, but I think RIP missing chapter fills in the holes so to speak. <br />I am thinking my re-read might go like this<br />Black Casebook, the scene from Year One, Dark Knight/Dark City, 52 #30, then Morrison's Batman, RIP Missing Chapter / Last Rites, Batman and Robin Vol.1 and 2, ROBW 1-5, Batman and Robin Must Die, ROBW 6, Black MassP.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05131685087942093903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-18002089989231925722010-11-12T06:55:00.561-08:002010-11-12T06:55:00.561-08:00At some point between 1718 and Valor's late jo...At some point between 1718 and Valor's late journey to the Van Derms, someone visits the Bat cave of the Miagani. The problem here is that the art draws the person looking a bit like Valor, which is causing some confusion. I don't think it's Valor -- I think it's a Van Derm. Valor was never allowed to pass to the part of the Miagani Bat-cave containing the cowl, but a caretaker of Bruce's legacy would. In fact, the cave is probably described in Mordecai's journal from his visit there with Annie, giving the Van Derms incentive to investigate Wayne's origin. The hair cut of the figure, straight and parted down the middle, is also evocative of the two Van Derms we have seen up to RoBW #3. This is how the Van Derms and the Miagani become connected. In these panels, White Fawn's necklace is around the neck of one of the female Miaganis. By RoBW #4, circa 1880s, it is already in the hands of Catherine Van Derm.Qabirihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12680453490079774475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-28580644679867961742010-11-11T23:47:06.261-08:002010-11-11T23:47:06.261-08:00pablo, thanks. The whole reading order? One way to...pablo, thanks. The whole reading order? One way to do it:<br /><br />Morrison's Batman run in publication order through the end of RIP<br />Final Crisis #1-4<br />Last Rites<br />Final Crisis #5-7<br />B&R #1-9 <br />ROBW #1-5<br />B&R #10-14<br />ROBW #6<br />B&R #15-16<br /><br />How about that?Rikdadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14475851964933197612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-47657854630907134502010-11-11T23:40:30.629-08:002010-11-11T23:40:30.629-08:00Gannon, is Metron Morrison? I think what Metron sa...Gannon, is Metron Morrison? I think what Metron says is near enough what his character in the story should say to think of him as a character. The Time Tailors in Seven Soldiers are avatars of Morrison. Do you mean like that?Rikdadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14475851964933197612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-86866364093317376122010-11-11T21:20:19.414-08:002010-11-11T21:20:19.414-08:00Great annotations.
@Mário Freitas:
>Darkseid ...Great annotations.<br /><br />@Mário Freitas:<br /><br />>Darkseid may be "dead" now, but he can be <br />>thought back to life, can be believed back to <br />>life, not that difficult a task in a society <br />>obssessed over negativity and gullible enough <br />>to believe in myths and ethereal dogma like <br />>god or "the devil". A similar theme was also <br />>used by JM Straczynski on Thor, with the <br />>asgardian gods being believed back into <br />>existence, even after Ragnarok (and god <br />>forbid I'm comparing JMS to Morrison).<br /><br />Uh, society's feelings don't reincarnate the New Gods. In Final Crisis Darkseid used technology to make people feel pessimistic, but societal beliefs didn't have anything to do with Darkseid's reincarnation. Besides that, Morrison himself believes in a lot of ideas you probably think are naive and stupid. Look at the letter column in the last issue of The Invisibles: Morrison says that the Devil is real. You should really leave your own mean-spirited beliefs at the door before trying to analyze something like this. Even though I have a feeling that I'd actually AGREE with you politically, what you're suggesting isn't even true: people across the globe have been steadily weening themselves off of religion for centuries now. And if you think "negativity" would have anything to do with Darkseid's reincarnation, I think the increasing use of anti-depressant drugs would disprove you on that point. Based on your criteria, despite a recession, 2010 would be one of the LEAST likely times in history for Darkseid to reincarnate. If your criteria had any merit, Darkseid could have been King of Earth during the Dark Ages and the first half of the 20th century, but that suggestion has never been made.<br /><br />>"(Hurt is) a pure strain of platonic evil"<br />>Essentially, "the devil".<br /><br />Uh, no. He's a strain of platonic evil only after he's been touched and endowed with power by Darkseid (via the Adapter/Barbatos). In the RIP Missing Chapter we read that DARKSEID IS this "platonic" evil. (Besides, I thought you didn't even believe in the devil!) The logic of what you're suggesting goes right back to the old "Does Darkseid = the Devil?" argument, which is very hypothetical and never-ending. Rikdad has basically conceded this point: Hurt isn't "the Devil" in any cohesive way. Someone could even argue that, even if there is a Devil, there could be other forms of "pure evil" besides Satan (child molesters, Hitler, Stalin, Mammon, dark gods such as Darkseid). And in fact, in the Missing Chapter we already did learn that Darkseid (not any "Devil") was this platonic evil.<br /><br />>And that's quite probably what atracted the <br />>Hyper-Adapter on his way through time<br /><br />No, again. He was attracted by the men summoning a demon (much as Bruce was attracted to summons for help). There's nothing to suggest that Hurt was some kind of "magnet" or that he was PURE "platonic evil" before the platonic evil of Darkseid's influence entered into him (when he bit the bat). Maybe Barbatos was attracted to the Satanic ritual by "fate" or whatever, but you can't say that Barbatos is attracted to evil men, because he appeared to Dick Grayson...and perhaps to Bruce as well (IF the bat that flew through Bruce's window before he rang the bell was an avatar of Barbatos).<br /><br />Oh! Last point on that: Don't know if it's been mentioned, but when that bat flew through the window, right when Bruce made up his mind to become Batman, it made shards of glass on the floor. And when the Zombie Batman in "Blackest Knight" talked about being born in the cloning tank, it talked about broken glass at its birth as well.montbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14786504952629177210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-31055272339229529802010-11-11T19:43:58.792-08:002010-11-11T19:43:58.792-08:00You mean at the End of Time? Or in general?
At th...You mean at the End of Time? Or in general?<br /><br />At the End of Time, the Ultimate events (meaning "final") are:<br /><br />1. Bruce arrives thanks to Nichols Engine. Is given the ultimate form of Lazarus. Disguises himself.<br />2. Superman & Rip Hunter arrive. Have their Sphere stolen by Bruce.<br />3. Superman & Co. escape into rebooted timeline in newly made Time Sphere.<br /><br />1, 2, 3.Keith Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09191397165163257948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-44636052412421726692010-11-11T19:26:49.762-08:002010-11-11T19:26:49.762-08:00I hate to set the conversation back with this ques...I hate to set the conversation back with this question, but what exactly were the other two big DCU events?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15773268020810431253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-48091457824740612242010-11-11T18:34:42.711-08:002010-11-11T18:34:42.711-08:00I imagine the Hyper-Adapter, as a 5th Dimensional ...I imagine the Hyper-Adapter, as a 5th Dimensional construct, doesn't necessary exist in any specific "time". It's perfectly logical to think that the Bat-Beast cloak transformed into the Time-Squid with Bruce's quantum leap, and maybe that it "adapted" each time Bruce jumped. Existing during all times, since it's an idea rather than a linear being, it's still affected in reverse by Bruce's plan to rebound it and kill it back at the beginning.Keith Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09191397165163257948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-5482702846422103062010-11-11T18:21:02.380-08:002010-11-11T18:21:02.380-08:00That's an interesting thought, Aiden, I like t...That's an interesting thought, Aiden, I like the idea of him "riding in on it" in ROBW#2. He was wearing it and then it transformed into it's original form.<br /><br />This book is going to be picked over for a while now. There are just to many layers here, its like an onion. I am going to relish getting all my trades and issues together and re-reading it all from scratchJonnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14667412261395222328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-78384909879775082432010-11-11T16:34:35.221-08:002010-11-11T16:34:35.221-08:00Three thoughts
1) Given that the Barbatos Hurt me...Three thoughts<br /><br />1) Given that the Barbatos Hurt met seemed calm, and not panicked, I'm assuming it was on the forward journey. As an aside, you can almost hear the God voice speaking behind Hurt in B&R 16.:)<br /><br />2) The box is still an issue. We know Hurt wanted it before possession by Barbatos due to the Miagani revering it, so that's cool. But why did it freak out everyone who saw it? Did it have to do w/ Bruce's things leaving behind trace Omega radiation that was affecting people who opened it? That's my only idea.<br /><br />3) Did you notice that after Bruce wore the giant bat/hyper adapter in RoBW 1, he jumps forward in time and the giant bat carcass is gone and all of a sudden the giant Cthulu-esque monster is present. It didn't come earlier than Bruce, as Annie said he "rode in on it". So, my question is, did the jump forward in time revive the HA? It seems possible, because we have no idea how it functions/dies/etc. That's be an interesting time loop. Seems too weird...<br /><br />Oh, and poor Annie. She barely got a mention :(Aidanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07480153591785972776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-65515987206968523482010-11-11T15:58:54.553-08:002010-11-11T15:58:54.553-08:00Rikdad, I think the casket wasn't just a red h...Rikdad, I think the casket wasn't just a red herring. Bruce was suffering from amnesia and there were only a few things he remembered from before Darkseid zapped him. The box was filled with things to remind himself of who he was, in case he forgot again during the Omega Sanction. It was a mnemonic device. <br /><br />Look at the first page of ROBW #3, we see a couple of things there: Bruce is telling himself to "remember", and then we see Darkseid's face, Bruce saying "Gotcha!" and we see Bruce of course, with the bat symbol on his chest. So bat symbol = batarang. I think he puts the note and the batarang in the box to remind himself of what's going on, so that he doesn't forget again. "I am Batman, I killed Darkseid and then I was sent here." <br /><br />It just so happens that Hurt started to suspect that the box had special powers because of how the Miagani revered it...Arjan Dirksehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08377847142252028490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-47013319033076509622010-11-11T15:40:39.790-08:002010-11-11T15:40:39.790-08:00Speaking of cults, Warren, while it's left unc...Speaking of cults, Warren, while it's left unclear when the Van Derms came into association with the Miagani (Surely it seems AFTER Annie's hanging and Martin's inheritance of Bruce-Mordecai's book), one has to connect the Miagani back to their original origins - "Batman: The Cult" and Deacon Blackfire. What year was his flashback supposed to take place in?Keith Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09191397165163257948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2404509015791000032.post-38038720467704731712010-11-11T15:38:34.177-08:002010-11-11T15:38:34.177-08:00Warren, there was broken glass during Year One, wh...Warren, there was broken glass during Year One, when it smashed through the window and apparently Darkseid "spotted" Batman.<br /><br />But while I haven't had time to go back yet and really figure out its timeline ... I agree that it's reverse-exile and death fits with the "One timeline, forward-then-back" format, possibly without the need for a "two timeline runs" scenario. In the "two run", the thing technically still exists buried alive with Hurt and isn't "dead", and it survives to find Bruce once more at the End of Time having been freed from its grave somehow only to be trapped in a causality loop by a clever Batman.<br /><br />In the "one timeline, forward-then-back" scenario, Bruce simply sets it on "rewind" and sends it back where it's slaughtered by Savage, inspiring the myth that creates Batman, rather than the myth that revives Darkseid.<br /><br />Causality loop vs. cosmic irony. I guess the irony version is more apropos.<br /><br />It bears further examination, I have yet to re-read ROBW#6 in context with other issues and really hunt for clues.<br /><br />It does make one wonder just what parts of the Crime Bible prophecy what, and where it overlaps. The Apokoliptian prophecies (preached by Libra or Coal or Mannheim under Morrison and Rucka) seem to have plenty of overlap with the more Biblical/Classical stuff spearheaded by Greg Rucka in The Question/Revelations/Spectre areas.<br /><br />Cain of the Red Rage, Vandal Savage ... as the weapon that destroys the shade of Darkseid, Barbatos ... and Joker as chaos taking down Hurt? Whose cult is the right cult?Keith Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09191397165163257948noreply@blogger.com